—Our Name
First off, our name is in Latin. If you didn’t see it else where, the translation is “Nothing Without Sin”. No, it’s not a Latin phrase I took from some where. If one were to have searched for “Nihil Sine Nefas” before us, you would have gotten nothing back. Trust me, before I made it, I used just about every search engine I could find to look for it to check to see if it was being used and it was 0 hits all around. Also, just to clarify, because at least one person I know has though this, Latin is a mostly dead language and has nothing at all to do with Latin America or anything like that. It was most predominantly spoken in the times of the Romans and since then has been relegated to either science or religious use (id est Christianity). I took it as my language classes, since then I have been learning Japanese myself. Anyways, for anyone interested in the construction:
Nihil: “nothing”, neuter noun, undeclinable
Sine: “without”, preposition requiring the ablative
Nefas: “sin, violation of divine law, impious act”, neuter noun, undeclinable (I think its worth noting that that’s directly from the dictionary)
The more common way of translating sin, “peccatum”, didn’t hold as heavy a connotation and would need to be declined into the ablative to match with sine (id est, “peccatō”). I thought the name up a long time ago when I was looking at Latin words. I liked that nihil and nefas were undeclinable as well as their meaning, “nothing” and “sin”. Sine is a common word and I liked that it looked like the English word “sin”. When I put those words together, this is what I got. NSN isn’t bad either, eh?
—Our Symbol
We have gotten a few emails asking if we know what it means. We do; We know both of the meanings: the original ‘humility before god’ (i.e. Saint Peter’s cross) and the modern anti-christian (e.g. Satanic) association (see: this). That said, we aren’t really using it for either of those. We are using it more for the vague connotation it brings up for us (I suppose as a result of the Satanic associations, but it’s not directly our intent). In other words, we thought it looked cool.
Nihil Sine Nefas 
What a thoughtful concept and meaningful name.respect to your genius mind thanks for sharing.
As a nerd who does ridiculous amounts of research before doing anything, I truly appreciate all the thought and effort you put into your name and symbol (also appreciate the scans of Until Death Do Us Part, btw).
And your side note…that third line absolutely threw me and my dictionary for a loop. It’s a shame, because the whole thing seemed really cool. ^_^
I’ve posted this elsewhere anyways, but the side note is this:
-Translation:
The devil awakes from sin and fear/
and truly he weaves dark light and law/
the judge of shadows destroys the freedom of the innocents everywhere
-Classical lettering:
DIABVLVS A NEFAS TIMOREQVE EXCITAT/
ATRVM LVCEM LEGEMQVE ENIM NET/
IVDEX VMBRARVM LIBERTATEM INNOCENTVM VBIQVE SVBRVIT
-Modern lettering:
diabulus a nefas timoreque excitat/
atrum lucem legemque enim net/
judex umbrarum libertatem innocentum ubique subruit
-And of course, hidden:
Dante Allen Julius-DANTE-ALLEN-IVLIVS-
-I-EIX-TVENE-VMINBV-
-A-FMC-RCGIT-DBBNIB-
-B-AOI-VEEM--EREOQR-
-V-SRT-MMM---XARCVV-
-L--EA---Q----RTEEI-
-V--QT---V----VAN-T-
-S--V----E----MTT---
----E----------EV---
---------------MM---
Oh well done on the translation! I was going to ask a latin wiz of a friend but you saved me the trouble.
Now, sorry to ask what may be a very naive question but who does Dante Allen and Julius refer to? Does Dante refer to the famous poet? I have no clue upon the other two. :p
I never answered this comment. Dante (Allen) Julius is the pseudonym I’ve adopted, though I almost always omit Allen. I’m drawing from a number of sources, yes, including the poet Dante.
how do you pronounce your name
Something like “Nee-hill seen-eh nay-fahs”.
man i love the phrase `Nihil Sine Nefas´, i was reading untill death do us part and saw it on the cred pages and thought “man im gona tatto that somewhere on my body”, wouldnt that be cool? keep up the good work!
I love your great scans and translations, this sure is one great fansub, but i couldn’t have left to notice, as a student of latin, that your translation is inverted. Nihil sure is nothing but Sine and Nefas are with their translations inverted. Sine is Sin while Nefas would be the “done without” correction.
No, the translation is correct as it is. Sine means “without,” as you can verify here. Nefas is the negative form of fas, not the negative form of “fac” (do) as you might have thought.
Nefas isn’t actualy sin though if you do take in mind that Nefas is something that is against the divine law is considered nowdays as a Sin you could indeed reach to the meaning of Sin. Though once again, through finding a synonym to the expression “Agaisnt the divine law” it was translated to Sin. The correct word for Sin would be Peccatum. I’m sorry for the first error of mine, but once again, Sine =/ of Peccatum and so it couldn’t exactly be translated as sin. My source of information is the Dictionary of Latin from the Porto Editora, Academic Dictionaries.
First off, the first listed definition for nefas is indeed “sin” (see here). And it makes sense, too… the definition of “sin” is not simply something that is wrong, but something that is wrong by divine standards — hence, nefas fits just fine.
Secondly, we are aware that the ecclesiastical word for sin is usually peccatum, but as we noted in the post itself:
Remember, translation isn’t one-to-one. It’s perfectly viable to have two words that translate into the same word in another language, and vice versa.
I did not verify this, but I’d like to add that I think nefas has a broader and more grave meaning than just “sin”. In english we have the word “nefarious” to denote something wicked or unholy and in spanish “nefasto” refers to an unlucky or ominous day. I think since we have these words in our modern languages as a legacy of their latin ancestry, their current meaning gives us a taste as well, to some extent, of their original use. I agree with your choice! I think sine peccato would have sounded a little too narrow and misdemeanor-like 🙂
Great name! even better now that i understand what it means. btw thank’s for vagabond. ur my 1º source for it.
Gotta admit, I’m impressed more by the breadth of knowledge than the amount of scans, which is saying something, believe me. Well done, and keep up the good work.
But nefas means unlawful. Peccatum means sin.
As we said in the post itself, “The more common way of translating sin, “peccatum”, didn’t hold as heavy a connotation and would need to be declined into the ablative to match with sine (id est, “peccatō”).”
Besides that, this argument has already been had; you can see it above between Nihil and Tsumi. If you’d like to know why we used Nefas and why we think it’s correct, you should read said exchange. If you have some reason for disagreeing after reading the arguments, we’d be happy to hear it and elaborate further in needed.
I must say that was really creative, i had to get it tattooed. And thanks for your time on giving us such great scans.
Ultum appreciated.
Actually your inverted cross logo has nothing to do with the anti-christ.
It’s a Saint Peters cross, and for the last 1800 years it has been a symbol of Christian martyrdom. It can be found in many churches and cathedrals worldwide.
The symbol generally used nowadays in popular culture for the anti-christ is an inverted crucifix, not a cross. A crucifix is a cross with the figure of a crucified Christ on it. But even that is primarily a modern Hollywood construct.
An inverted crucifix (not cross) may offend some Catholics and Orthodox as improper, but mainline protestants and evangelicals view a crucifix as idolatry and could care less how it is hung.
The actual ancient symbol for the anti-christ is a dragon with seven heads and 10 horns.
The more you know.
We’re aware of the “real” meaning of the inverted cross; like the last paragraph says, we just use it because we think it looks cool. And in that sense, it gets a lot of use — for example, Black Sabbath’s s/t album has an inverted cross on the inside-back cover.
Didn’t know about that last part, though… but that would make a pretty awesome album cover.
Yeah, as Nihil said, we addressed that that in the last paragraph.
I just threw in a link to the wiki about the St. Peters cross and clarified the wording so people are clear on what where talking about when we say we know the original meaning. Also, I think “Satanic” is a better word for the situation than “anti-Christ” which we meant more broadly rather than the restrictive definition that comes to mind, ergo I rectified that.
On the topic of its meaning, if anyone is arguing that using it at all as satanic symbolism is incorrect, then I’d have to ask what makes a symbol right. Being historically first? I’d like to think the contemporary meaning which the majority of people associate with something (in other words, the modern connotation it hold) is probably the best measure one could get. In which case, I would think the satanic symbolism would be more “correct”. That being said, I think both are valid. A good example is the word “gay”; it used to mean “happy”, but now the most reasonable interpretation would be “homosexual” given the usage is modern society, however contextual usage and arbitration allows either to be a fair interpretation and correct usage.
Well the inverted cross has never been used for satanic symbolism even today (aside from the odd aforementioned album cover).
Since the 60’s however an inverted crucifix has been used for satanic symbolism.
Now there is a difference; a cross is a symbol like your logo, a crucifix however is an image of a cross with a crucified Christ on it.
It’s the inverted image of a cross with a crucified Christ on it that Hollywood and dabblers have recently used as an symbol for satanism and the anti-christ.
The actual symbol for satan in apocalyptic literature is similar to the anti-christ; it is a red dragon, usually with a wound to its (single) head.
The goat legged derivative of Pan didn’t make it’s appearance until the start of the second millenium, and the pentagram was even later.
Please don’t feel like I’m attacking your group or logo by the way. I just like to windbag and bloviate about stuff I’m interested in. So feel free to ignore me or tell me to screw off if I’m bothering you.
By no means do we take offense, nor should you. It’s an interesting subject to explore.
To begin, I guess I should further change the post from “satanic” to “anti-christian”. We actually played with the idea, but “anti-christian” made us wince a bit since we don’t like to unnecessarily ruffle people’s feathers. I guess it should be that since it most clearly defines the situation. Still, satanism is a subset of anti-christian, so it’s in part applicable and easily the most clearly distinguishable uses.
Getting to the point, I think the very clearly defined historic examples you’re talking about might be ignoring a large group as well described in a simple google image search of “inverted cross”:
http://images.google.com/images?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS340&=&q=inverted%20cross&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
(Tangent, but as I found on the first page: http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A084rcInvertdCross.htm
quoted from the page:
Granted it’s short on details and a bit dubious, nevertheless; symbolism isn’t itself picky about its means of perpetuation.)
While you’ll see some St. Peter images, you’ll also see good deal of the results are very likely intended to be linked to anti-christian symbolism, more specifically satanism (if by nothing other than it’s color scheme or incorporation of other symbols which together clearly imply satanic links). Further, you’ll find that there are quite a few that are not crucifixes but merely inverted crosses. Again, symbolism isn’t picky about its means of perpetuation.
There’s quite a few subcultures (ie metal music culture, occultists, etc) that have inverted crosses as a central fixtures, so much so that my impression is that it’s more prevalent than the aforementioned more venerable interpretations. Though, I suppose it can sometimes be more derivative than direct. That is, a subset of a given subculture incorporated it with the satanic meaning in tact, but thereafter satanic implications remain only vestigially. It’s impossible to tell how many iterations any given depiction could have gone through, nonetheless I think most people using it in such a manner would still be able to identify it in some part as anti-christian.
That being said, I very much appreciate the more venerable meaning — we are the guys that translated the Divine Comedy manga after all. Of course, it must also be said that my social groups — I’m a 20 year-old who who is well acquainted with a few individuals which are fans of metal music and its culture — might put me in a much closer proximity to these occurrences than others. That being the case, it’s hard for me to grasp the perspective of one outside of these thing. I suppose it could be even so far as to invalidate my reading on most common modern connotation. I can’t really see much further from my current vantage point, so I guess there’s not much more to say.
(Well, this has turned out to be quite the ramble. Guess that’s just par for the course with me…)
Haha. I enjoyed that ramble of yours quite a bit, no ill intent intended. For some one who is, from time to time, very interested in latin and it’s surroundings, despite my vast ignorance, and also very engrossed in the modern culture of Japan, I would also like to wonder if you would share the same. . .intensity(?) of interest, or how you came upon the interest, of Manga.
Hey guys !
Something caught my interest while reading UDDP : do you think the country “Galboa” actually refer to any real country or actual diplomatic incident ? That would be interesting !!
It was a while ago, but I seem to remember looking for it, but not finding anything in the end. There’s a good chance it is in some way influenced by reality, but if it is, the names and details are probably altered (which is standard practice for manga, see: “Omaha” in Air Gear).
Haha. I love how well you know what you’re talking about. This type of thing usually attracts the attention of countless self-righteous pundits, and it feels wonderful to know their asses are being handed to them and all in good sport and a day’s work. Cheers.
your name is nicely well thought out, thanks for the explanation. (and of course for the awesome scanlations)
haha and about the inverted cross thing, actually i thought you guys maybe had used that symbol from translating UDDUP. I remember Mamoru wearing an inverted cross necklace on one of the book covers or colored pages, like here: http://www.animepaper.net/gallery/scans/Until-Death-Do-Us-Part/item205872/
which i thought was cool because it fit mamoru’s image well because it is a symbol of sin but also the shape of a sword.
but i guess my assumptions were wrong lol.
Great info, thanks for useful post. I’m waiting for more
i think the correct construction of the sentence would be “sine nefas nihil”, because I know another quote “sine labore nihil” and it means nothing without work
there’s no set construction, ergo no “correct” construction. That’s because all the meaning is held in prepositional phrases, declensions and conjugations rather than order, provided that all parts are held in their own clause. Granted that nefas and nihil are indeclinable, the important part is the matching of the preposition and following word. This is in contrast to a language, such as English, where word order defines the meaning.
That said, there are still expected norms which could be more or less be equated to “correct” (that is, fluently constructed). However, I’m not so sure a single quote constitutes enough context to set a norm, especially considering I have seen constructions similar to ours, e.g. “nihil sine deo”.
I plan to get a tattoo of this. Ill probably send you a link of it when its down if you want to see
Ahaha, I love you guys!
I’ve never been interested in these groups (um, what are these types of groups called?…), so this is a first! What initially got my attention were your outstanding quality scans on UDDUP.. then I saw Nihil Sine Nefas, which made me feel nostalgic! The first time I saw your name, I knew nihil sounded extremely familiar, but couldn’t put a finger on what it meant! Sine and nefas were completely foreign, so I just disregarded it all (and apparently the translation right under it as well). The sad part is, I took Latin in middle school AND high school. Obviously, I didn’t learn much; I never understood declensions and failed almost every test, but they were the most entertaining classes I had (well, the teachers were entertaining). Anyways, I’m glad I finally came to your website on this hot summer day. Nihil Sine Nefas is probably the coolest name I’ve seen in quite a while. Apparently it’s a really nice tattoo phrase as well, haha.
Furthermore, I love that you actually put thought and reason in what you do and have research done where needed. You even put polls to see the best interest of your readers! I find that absolutely remarkable. I also find it amazing that all the comment-ers on your website (at least the pages I’ve been on) type without text abbreviations. That’s rare these days.
“[…]When I put those words together, this is what I got. NSN […]” hmmm Nokia Siemens Networks?
ROFL what a coincidence
I have been curious about that since i started reading your credit page and love it. ill have to tell my freind, she lies cool latin phrases but definitely wont steal it. Thanks so much for the great scans for UDDUP.
About Nefas… I seem to remember Colleen McCullough defining it as “Sacrileg” . Among Latin words, it was a heavy-hitter that was used only for special connotation and revulsion, at least, that’s how her character used it. In any case, I hapchanced across your site and think it’s a good strong phrase.
I read this post completely concerning the difference of hottest and earlier technologies, it’s awesome article.
The translation is wrong. . You wrote it wrong and you know this .
Great post. I am facing a couple of these problems.
NIHIL SINE NEFAS YOUR TRANSLATIONS ARE SHIT AND YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE TRANSLATED VAGABOND, YOU ARE THE WORST TRANSLATION TEAM EVER!!! JUST ABOUT NOTHING IN THE CHAPTERS YOU TRANSLATED MAKES SENSE!!! YOU GUYS ARE SO, SO, SOOOOO BAD THAT A HAMSTER WALKING AROUND A KEYBOARD HITTING RANDOMLY ALL THE KEYS WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE THAT THE UTTER GIBBERISH YOU CHURN OUT!!!!
YOU ALMOST RUINED A BEAUTIFUL SERIES SUCH AS VAGABOND, THANK GOODNESS YOU ONLY TRANSLATED 4 AND A HALF VOLUMES, AND NOT THE WHOLE SERIES!!!! I’M HAPPY THAT, BACK THEN, TAKEHIKO INOUE TOOK A HIATUS FOR SO LONG THAT WHEN HE RETURNED YOUR SHITTY TRANSLATION TEAM WAS ALREADY DISBANDED!!!! THANKS TO THAT, ANOTHER, MUCH BETTER TRANSLATION TEAM, TOOK OVER FOR THE FARMING ARC, AND I SAY THANK GOODNESS BECAUSE THAT ARC IS ONE OF THE BEST IN VAGABOND AND IT REALLY DESERVED A TRANSLATION THAT WAS ON PAR, NOT YOUR UTTERLY GIBBERISH CRAP!!!!
SO GO FUCK YOURSELF, THROW YOURSELF OUT OF THE WINDOW, JUMP OFF A SKYSCRAPER, AND NEVER, EVER, TRANSLATE WITH YOUR HORRIBLE SHITTY GIBBERISH AGAIN!!!!!!!